Make:

metric or standard? In most parts of the world metric is standard.

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the us system is called standard here, i always thought that was odd when its not (as you said)

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It's 'Imperial or metric'... Americentric pretentions aside.

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ok well, we can at least agree that manifesto is GOOD :)

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Hey - what is wrong with torx bits :P Most of the screws in my car are T20 or T25. But yes, tamper proof - grrr.

My last car was metric and each bolt head was number coded (per the size). So if you see a 6 on the head - you know you need a 10mm (or whatever - I forget what the code was) socket :)

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"if you see a 6 on the head - you know you need a 10mm"

Which is a pretty good example of how Engineers can take a perfectly logical measurement system and utterly screw up the implementation.

Dadblamed idjit galoots.

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Hard drives should be replaceable.

You listening, Apple?

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Definately should be "Imperial/Standard, but better Metric, never both!"

As for a 6 on the head, that means it is a 6mm metric thread*, but, obviously, the head is bigger than the thread, and it is 10mm.

Torx is far better than a size 00(?) Phillips in the bottom of a deep hole! Everyone should have a set of anti-tamper bits, you can get them for almost no money these days, as long as they are the "standard suite", who cares? I rather like anti-tamper Torx, as they are the bits I use anyway on all Torx heads. They never strip or twist out. :-)

*but is it a 1.25mm, 1mm or 0.8mm pitch?

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Shouldn't it read: "Buyer's" Bill Of Rights?

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Screws before Glues, bro.

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""if you see a 6 on the head - you know you need a 10mm"

Which is a pretty good example of how Engineers can take a perfectly logical measurement system and utterly screw up the implementation. "

Fair enough :P I've yet to find another car with any sort of system - so no complaints from me (especially when they could have used 六 instead of 6) :P

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Haha, found this at boingboing.net:

Warranty Voider violations of The Maker's Bill Of Rights

1. No parts list.
2. Case is sealed by rivets -- cannot be opened for repair.
3. Need a drill to remove rivets and a riveter to replace them (i.e. 'special tools required').
4. Can't get at components to replace them, thus entire assembly must be replaced, and proprietary parts are not available individually to the end user.
5. Ease of repair not a consideration.
6. No schematics included.

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zmoney86 -

i asked cory to update his post, the make warranty voider comes with a 25 year warranty from leatherman - so it's kinda silly to say these things, but i will quickly go through them.

1. No parts list.
it's like saying "parts list" for hammer, we are talking about different things. it would help to read the article in make that goes with the chart :) it's hard to fit that in a box though.

2. Case is sealed by rivets -- cannot be opened for repair.
thing are welded too, there's a difference between purposely using rivet or funny screws to keep people out and using them to make the quality better.

3. Need a drill to remove rivets and a riveter to replace them (i.e. 'special tools required').
see above.

4. Can't get at components to replace them, thus entire assembly must be replaced, and proprietary parts are not available individually to the end user.
again, it's a hunk of metal - it's a tool. it's something you use to take things apart, would an open source version be better? yes, would we carry that? yes - can we work together to get to place where that's possible - i hope so.

5. Ease of repair not a consideration.
really? 25 year warranty, no questions asked (in my experience) - what else can you own for less than $40 that gives you a warranty like that.

6. No schematics included.
it's a tool, you can measure it. it's like saying "schematic" for a ruler.

that said, who knows maybe leatherman will release CADs of the tools one day, they're pretty hip, maybe they will -

it's funny, you do your best to support good causes and you always have someone trying to say it's not good enough. we try our best and always will to encourage change for the good, i think this is a good start.

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There is a huge difference between a screwdriver/hammer, and a multi-tool. It's like saying I don't need to open my car or robot, as it's a tool. My automobile is nothing but a "hunk of metal and plastic". I disagree with PT's comments quite strongly here.

Having a good warranty does not mitigate the need for an open platform.

This 'tool' is a good example of something which is not open, as illustrated by zmoney86 (the original author from boingboing).

While I agree with the concepts outlined of the "maker's bill of rights", I think makezine has fallen on its own sword again.

My 3cents on the matter,
3ric

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3ric - ALL we can do is help promote WHAT would be good for everyone, makers, etc - are any tools open? not really, i've never seen an open source hammer. can we work to change that YES. i think i'm asking for your support here, you know what needs to be changed in the world, we can only get there together as opposed to snarking each other.

it's a TOOL used to take apart things, the manifesto is a goal.

why the hatin' ?

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I think this is a pretty good example of crying wolf. I design open source hardware and sure its a 'bummer' that my soldering iron isnt open source but that doesnt mean I dont use it to build said electronics with.

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It may take a drill to remove the rivet - but who said it had to be replaced with a rivet? I've replaced plenty of proprietary fasteners with more common ones :)

In any case, why stumble over fundamental building blocks? Must I explain in detail how you should hold a nail when using a hammer in order to build a house? Or even more asinine -- do I need to provide parts list for water in a smoothie recipe?

If Make: is throwing themselves on their own sword - at least they're not missing the point ;)

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treb - *thanks*

user-serviceable sure, for someone with a mill, or access to one - i could make replacements. you can pop the rivets off, mill a new part, or different one, i might even do that and do a how-to. it's a tool, you can take it apart.

what's the thing that will likely happen? dullness, you can sharpen the knife with any honing device. you can order the tweezers if they're lost, for some leatherman there are parts that come off, etc - i think folks are snarking in a little - the manifesto is a goal, we all work hard to do our best to move things in a positive direction. it's not like there is any open source pocket knife. if there was, we'd use that of course stock those too, with LASERS.

you dont get the schematics on your motherboard even if you run all open source, we gotta start somewhere. i use ecto to post things on make, but run open office. i try my best.

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PT - -

I don't mean to hate... please don't view my comments as such. Yes, I was being blunt but that was for the sake of clarity.

Promotion is the key - - having builders support more 'makezine' branded swag doesn't help the 'cause'.

It's important that Make can generate funds to stay in business. It's also important that the manifesto does not become compromised in the process.

This does not have to be an either/or situation. It's just a matter of picking items to promote wisely.

A quick review of the 'electronic' related projects on the make store shows that most of them have 'source' out there. This is ideal, and is completely inline with the manifesto. It's what we've grown to expect and require from make. If this gets compromised, we as makers loose faith in makezine as being a trustworthy source of information. _I_ don't want that. It's not hate, it's love.

Something I would like to see on the makezine store - - a clearly displayed license on each and every product.

Please don't break my heart,
3ric

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everyone from the outside 3ricj is one of our MAKE pals, he helps us a lot and i just chatted with'em over IM we're all good :)

we are a good time discussing open source :)

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I am a little surprised by the reaction my post caused. I did not intend to make a cutting remark with the quoted text. I read it on boingboing, saw some truth in it (though I will agree that there were a couple silly arguments), but mainly got a good laugh out of it and wanted to share the humor and the irony (there is irony here...) that someone had found in the package. I don't think it's fair to say I am calling your 'support of a good cause' not good enough. Regardless of how great a 25 year warranty is (especially for something like this), I do think you will agree with me that the idea of an open source multi-tool is pretty fascinating. Also, I think you might want to email Cory and tell him that in updating his post, he made all the text below it red by mistake. Just saying :)

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zmoney86 - it's all good :)

i thought it was funny too.

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Can we get a PDF? Or original format? What if we want to MAKE our own? =)

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let me know if this ok:
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=306528267&size=o

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Wow, controversy!

I think I agree with the "limits to the whole thing" arguement of you can just measure it with a ruler. There is nothing hidden, therefore use of a rivet to hold the scissors together is better than a screw, because a screw comes loose and gets lost, while the rivet lasts for ten years easy.

Besides, as pt points out, if you have the gear to make a new part for this, you have the gear to take it apart. For most people, all they could do is shuffle the parts around or lose them if it was self-disassembly-able. To those who want to mod it, drill the rivet, change the order of the tools around, then either rivet it again or, pop a bolt through. The first time you use it at length you will realise why a rivet got used, unless you used locking nuts.

I also support Torx and tamperproof Torx. It stops idiots from hurting themselves, but doesn't slow down anyone who is smart enough to have bought a set of the bits, since they are now pretty standard. And every lawsuit they prevent means lower prices for everyone else.

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